I’ve had the pleasure of working with Eman Ismail for more than a year now on her podcast Mistakes That Made Me. It’s a remarkable show about extraordinary business owners who have made soul-crushing mistakes, and how they’ve recovered and, in many cases, excelled afterward.
I wanted to talk to Eman about the success of her podcast because she has many of the same goals my other clients do, which is to build her brand authority through podcasting. But I also wanted to talk with her because she is super focused on storytelling, which is at the heart of everything that I do here at ZMC.
Eman is the owner of Eman Copy Co. She is an expert copywriter and email strategist. And she’s also a superb marketer. In this conversation, which I’ve transcribed below, we walk through how she landed on the concept of her show, the most difficult part about podcasting, how the podcast has benefitted her business, and advice she has for anyone who wants to start a podcast.
Note: This transcript of our conversation has been edited for clarity. You can hear the full conversation in my podcast, Podcasting with Zuri Berry, here.
Table of contents
- How Mistakes That Made Me was born
- The importance of storytelling
- How Eman Ismail knew she needed help to pull off her podcast idea
- The most difficult part about podcasting
- How has Mistakes That Made Me been received (video)
- What’s it like working with ZMC?
- Eman Ismail’s advice for anyone looking to start a podcast
How Mistakes That Made Me Was Born
Zuri Berry: So I wanted to start with why you wanted to start a podcast and how you came up with the concept for Mistakes That Made Me.
Eman Ismail: I wanted to start a podcast because I have a lot of things that I want to say that I want to share. I always felt like I was naturally a podcaster. I felt like this needed to happen. It was going to happen. It needed to happen. I just need to figure out a great concept for a show. And I knew that I wanted there to be a concept. I didn’t want it to just be average, kind of like a Q&A or, oh, I’m just interviewing business owners.
I knew there needed to be a concept because I am a copywriter. I’m an email copywriter. And that means I understand and know and work with every single day the importance of messages and positioning. And I knew that I needed a concept that would really stick out in people’s minds, and I wanted a strong theme.
So, I’ve always been really fascinated by this idea of making mistakes in business. But what’s interesting is that when it came to the kind of the mistakes that I was making in my personal life, I’ve always been really, really harsh with myself. But when it comes to the business side of stuff, when I make mistakes there, I’m a lot softer.
I might tell myself that was a really silly thing to do. Why’d you do that? But I’ll get over it much quicker. For example, I literally just made a calendar mistake where I double booked some calls with someone that I really didn’t want to have to go and cancel the call with.
And so I made myself look silly. And this person doesn’t know me, so they don’t know that I’m not usually this silly. And so it didn’t feel great. However, even, even just half an hour ago, I had a conversation with myself where I told myself, look, you made a mistake. Get over it. It’s not the end of the world.
You know, do what you can to solve the issue and then move on. And if that person doesn’t like it, well, there’s not much you can do. Right? I don’t speak to myself in that way when it comes to personal stuff. I’m going to need therapy for the mistakes I make in my personal life. So I was like, why is it so much easier for me in business?
And I started to think about all the mistakes I’ve made. All the mistakes surely other business owners have made. Because I know that to get to a certain point, you cannot get there without having made some mistakes along the way. So, the theme was there, and honestly, the name just kind of dropped from the sky.
So I believe in God, so I’m like, this is the divine intervention right here. Because I mean this name just, like dropped from the sky and into my mind, and I was like, that’s it. There was no like sitting down brainstorming. There was no brainstorming. There was no like, what should it be called [or] I don’t know what. It was Mistakes That Made Me. That’s it.
Zuri Berry: That’s lovely. It came naturally.
The importance of storytelling
Zuri Berry: And you hinted at something at the very beginning there, which was that you wanted this concept to be something more than just an interview format, and so I wanted to ask you about the importance of storytelling to the podcast.
Eman Ismail: Oh, storytelling is everything. So one of the other reasons, honestly, I wanted to create this podcast was because I felt like I needed a creative outlet. I didn’t have many things that I was doing that were really for me. It always seemed like everything was for the business to monetize it and make money and all that stuff, which is great. Love making money.
But I just felt like I needed something for me. I needed something where I could be creative and just have fun. And where there were really like no expectations and no limitations, you know, restricted me.
So because this was going to be a creative outlet, I knew that while storytelling is the thing that I love to do most, I think when people meet me, even just as friends, it’s Eman’s a storyteller. She tells stories, and she’s a little bit dramatic with it, and she has a lot of fun with it.
And so I knew this was going to be a place where I told stories. And I knew it was going to be a place where I told other people’s stories. But I also wanted to find a way to inject my stories in there as well. So it wasn’t just about the guests, but it was also about me in some places. And the listeners would have a chance to get to know me as well, as well as the guest. Because if I was going to make a show, and then I want the listeners to know who I am and what I do, and also how they can pay me and work with me.
“Storytelling is absolutely vital to this show. And actually, it drives all of it from the very beginning.”
Eman ismail
So storytelling is absolutely vital to this show. And actually, it drives all of it from the very beginning. Before a guest comes onto the show, I ask them to share what their mistake is. What is the mistake that made you so I know going into the show the mistake that they’re going to share. But I don’t exactly know where the conversation is going to go.
But that means that their story’s at the center of this. And then, from that story comes the rest of the show. I wait till we’ve recorded, until we’ve had the conversation, and then I go away and write the story for the intro, the script for the intro, and then the story or the script for the outro.
And so it really all centers around storytelling. And then, I think as well, Zuri, you do a great job — and this is one of the reasons I wanted to work with you. And really there was, there was no other podcast producer that I spoke to or that I even considered working with. It was always you.
Zuri Berry: That’s high praise. Thank you. I didn’t know that.
Eman Ismail: No, it’s true because, once we spoke, you just got it. You got what I was trying to do, and I told you on that very first call that I want the sound and the music to be part of the storytelling. I want it all to come together and really for this to be an experience for the listener.
I want ’em to go away and feel like, wow, that was an amazing story to listen to, not just in terms of the words that were spoken, but also the sounds, the music, the all of it together, and you really got that. So I think it’s not just the storytelling with the words that we do, it’s also the sounds, the music, the production as well.
Zuri Berry: Wow. You made me blush there. Thank you. There are so many things I want to follow up with there, particularly about sort of this being a creative outlet and the difficulty of podcasting. It is. It requires so much time and energy, mental energy. But also just the sheer work that goes into the sort of creative aspect of it.
And I wonder because it’s also, not just for your brand, but also a passion project, if that helps you continue with the podcast?
Eman Ismail: Yes, absolutely. I think exactly what you said about podcasting, it takes a lot of time, and I think particularly how I’ve structured the show, it takes a lot of time for me to create, even from the point of researching the guests to do an interview with them, which is generally about an hour and a half, and then writing the scripts. There are just so many different parts to it. It takes a long time.
And so I do find sometimes that my creativity weans a little bit like I’m tired, especially when I’m in the middle of projects, and I’ve got all the stuff going on. I’ve also got two kids, so it’s hard to always be in that creative zone. However, I knew that that would be the case. So that’s why I created the structure of the show the way that I did so that it would be seasonal. So this isn’t a show that I’m doing all year round because it requires a lot of creativity, a lot of thought, a lot of planning and a lot of time, a lot of energy as well.
So I have these kinds of seasons in place where we record and produce a season and then put it out over the course of two months, maybe.
And so I’m not working on this all year around. I have breaks in between. So yes, I do need to be creative. And yes, there are those energy dips, but I think we’re dealing with them. I’ve found a way to manage them quite well.
How Eman Ismail knew she needed help to pull off her podcast idea
Zuri Berry: When you mentioned that there was a certain point where you knew you wanted to reach out and get help and whatnot. How did you know? When did you know that you needed help in order to pull off the podcast, and what part did you feel like you needed the most help with?
Eman Ismail: I am a big believer in hiring people, in outsourcing. I am also a perfectionist. I’m trying, and that is not a good thing. I’m working on not being a perfectionist. But I knew that if I’m going to do a podcast, I’m not going to sit for 10 hours trying to record, trying to edit an interview that a professional could edit in much less time and could also do a much better job.
So that’s that, for starters. I’m not going to waste my time doing that. But then, you know, there is a side of it where it’s like, well, this is an investment. This is an investment. I don’t know if the podcast is going to, you know, produce a return on investment. I have no idea going into that. And so in terms of kind of getting past that hurdle and still kind of moving forward with this, and knowing that I wanted to hire help, it was really about the level of, I guess, expertise as well that I was going to get on this.
The idea that having a second brain on this is exactly what I need, I need someone who loves doing this. Because that part of it is not what I love to do. Like I want to do the part that I love and then want to hand over the other part that I don’t love to someone who does love it, and everyone’s happy. Everyone is happy that way. And I knew again just after speaking to you that I was like, yeah, this is, this is a good match. I can, I can see how this is going to work. And again, like when we worked together on that very first episode, I think it was Vivian Kaye’s.
Zuri Berry: Yeah.
Eman Ismail: If you go listen to the episode at the beginning, right in the intro, you introduce the sounds of, I’m talking about the market, a market, and then you introduce sounds of a market.
And when I was writing that, I imagined the sounds of the market in my mind, but I didn’t say it to you, because I wanted to see what you came up with. I didn’t want to influence you. And then the very first edit that you gave me had the market sounds in the background. And I was just like, that’s when I knew that I’d made the right decision, hiring someone to help me with this. Because I knew firstly, you know, the fact that I saved my energy and my time on not having to do that. And you know, we forget about like just the mental side of it as well. Like imagine if I’d had that on my task list amongst all the other things I have to do.
What am I going to have time to edit a podcast? I don’t have time to do that. The podcast wouldn’t happen. It would’ve been one of those things where it’s like, oh, I’d record the interview and then it never, it never goes out. And I really didn’t want it to be that way. I also love that you don’t just come in and do the production.
You are very much part of the, like development as well. It was a team effort in terms of you helping to get things out of me and push me and, you know, put timelines on things and like, let’s get, let’s do this, let’s get through it. Like, have you thought about this?
Have you thought about how you’re going to do that? And I, I needed that. So I guess that level of accountability as well. And teamwork worked for me.
Zuri Berry: That’s awesome. And I vividly remember the Vivian Kaye episode because I was like, you know, she’s mentioning this market in Accra, and I was like, we can totally find something from that. And I was able to pull some sound that went with that. So that was cool.
Eman Ismail: But it was the actual market though, wasn’t it?
Zuri Berry: Yes. It was the actual market in Accra, in Ghana. Yeah.
Eman Ismail: Is that not amazing? It’s amazing.
Zuri Berry: A good episode and a good start to the podcast.
The most difficult part about podcasting
Zuri Berry: So you mentioned a little bit earlier that you do some storytelling on the front end and on the back end. And I’m kind of interested in what’s the most difficult part for you in terms of getting the storytelling going, but also injecting yourself within the throes of the interview. Is it the research? What part is the most difficult to produce a podcast?
Eman Ismail: I think for me, it’s not the research part. I can get really lost in the research part. And maybe that’s because so much of my work as an email copywriter is research. Before I work on any, like writing emails for any of my clients, I’m interviewing their customers. I’m surveying their customers. I’m doing a lot of research. So that’s kind of like what I’m used to.
I think for me, the biggest part, maybe the hardest part is the scripting of the intro and the outro, because I’m trying to make sure that the story really, that it all just fits together. Because if I get it wrong in those pieces, it feels like I will be destroying what is usually an amazing interview.
And so it feels like there’s a lot of pressure on the intro, in the outro, to do a good job. And so I’m always trying to make sure that the theme that I am seeing and recognizing in the interview, in the episode, I am sharing in my intro and outro. Because it’s usually there.
“I’m thinking, hey, I’m a writer. Literally, this is my work that I do all day, every day. How hard can this be? Turns out it’s a lot harder than it looks.”
Eman ismail
I’m sharing a story that ties back to the guest and then the outro, I’m sharing my reflections on the episode. It just feels like I need to get it right. So sometimes I think I put a lot of pressure on myself to get it right. And I think, initially, when we first spoke about how this was going to work in terms of production, I was like, oh yeah, yeah, sure. I’ll do the interview and then give me a day. I’ll write up the script, and I’ll send you the script the day after. Because I’m thinking, hey, I’m a writer. Literally, this is my work that I do all day, every day. How hard can this be? Turns out it’s a lot harder than it looks. I needed more than a day to come up with the script.
If anything, I needed a couple of days to soak in the interview and to really think about the interview before I could even sit down and start writing. And so that I came back to you, and I was like, yeah, Zuri, I’m going to need more than a day. Actually, I might need a week. So that, I felt like that maybe slowed us down, but you were really receptive. You’re like, it’s fine. But I felt like that slowed us down, and I’m just getting used to the idea that that part of the process isn’t as fast as I want it to be.
But also that’s just part of the creativity process. Sometimes part of coming up with a script is going out for a walk and just thinking or not thinking about the script, and so giving myself the space to have that kind of freedom and thought and like just, just giving myself the space to create something that’s going to be good is something that I’m still working on. But yeah, that’s definitely the hardest part.
Zuri Berry: You can’t rush creativity. And I think we all know that, and a podcast forces you to know that.
Eman Ismail: Exactly.
How has Mistakes That Made Me been received?
Zuri Berry: So how has Mistakes That Made Me been received? And how has that reception affected your business, if at all?
Eman Ismail: I mean, people love it. People love it and feel really strongly about it because I think it’s very different from other podcasts out there. I think the strong theme, the strong concept, makes it super memorable for people. Like it’s something we’re not really used to. I think it has a strong, even proposition.
And so that I think people are taken aback by it, in a good way. And then people absolutely love the guests and the stories and the idea that these super successful people have made mistakes and are actually on this show sharing their mistakes. And this isn’t like a superficial sharing of the mistake. We sit down and talk for usually an hour and a half about how much of a mistake this mistake really was. So people love that honesty and that vulnerability that we often don’t get to see from people that we really look up to and that we see as being really successful business owners.
And so the show has gone down really well. I get so many messages from people telling me how much they love it. They tell me what their favorite episodes were, or even just like their favorite part of an interview where, you know, X specifically said this, or one thing that really resonated with me. And I think what’s been amazing is seeing, now, as we’ve kind of got on, because now we’re on season two. Season one, I was going out and asking guests to come on the show. And I remember getting a no from a couple of people because it was a new show. They don’t say yes to new shows because they have no idea if I’m actually going to publish the podcast. Like I’m going to, I’m not going to waste my time and be on the show. And you’re not even going to publish the thing. Is it going to be any good? Like, I don’t know what’s coming, so I’m not going to say yes. And so, getting those first six guests, I still feel so grateful to those six for saying yes. But now, in season two, Zuri, I’ve been getting pitches nearly every day from people who want to be on this podcast.
Zuri Berry: Oh, it’s a great demonstration of their expertise, of their lows coming back to a high. One thing we haven’t talked about is that there’s always this sort of arc to the storytelling that comes back to what they’ve learned from their experience in this mistake and how it sort of — and so I can see why so many people would want to tell that kind of story — about how they’ve gone from a low to a high. And that’s what we typically experience through the podcast. So it’s really cool.
Eman Ismail: Yeah. And in terms of the second part of your question, which is what has it done for my business? This is a really interesting question because the goal for me was never to monetize. Like we sat down at the beginning and listed out my goals and making money from this podcast was one of my goals, but it wasn’t one of the top ones.
It was like that would be a really great bonus because I know that it’s not easy to monetize a podcast. I think that my biggest goal was always brand awareness. So I want people to be talking about my brand so that more people can know about my brand, so that more people will eventually enter kind of my sphere and then potentially buy my courses, buy my digital products, and hire me as their email copywriter.
So it was always brand awareness first and foremost. And it was also to build my authority as well, and I think that’s been the biggest thing. So I don’t make any money off this podcast. I don’t believe it’s made me any money yet. And I say believe because it could be the case that someone heard about me through the podcast and then inquired with me, and then we ended up working together. But I don’t think that’s happened yet. But what has happened is that because of the high caliber of guests that I’m getting, I’m borrowing their authority, so my authority as a business owner has increased simply because I’m having conversations with other successful business owners.
And so I’m seeing people take me more seriously, seeing people thinking of me in a category that is higher than the category I would think of myself. That’s definitely been the biggest thing, is that it has built my authority.
And what’s really interesting as well is that I’ve definitely had more invitations to speaking stuff because of it. I thought I did a lot of speaking stuff before, like podcast webinars, events, like workshops, all that kind of thing. The speaker requests that are coming in have dramatically increased, to the point that I actually hired a marketing coordinator to help me manage the speaker requests now, and it’s just been amazing.
I had my, actually, one of my dream guests that I didn’t bother pitching to come on the podcast. I didn’t even bother to pitch her cause I just thought she was not going to say yes. She pitched me, she asked me if she could be on the podcast. I was like, what world am I living in? This is absolutely crazy.
So yeah, that’s what I think has been the biggest thing, the building of my authority. And I think that translates into sales eventually. And, you know, I’m a marketer, so I know the link between your authority building, nurturing your trust, building your relationship, building the connection, building with you and your audience and your listeners, to eventually it translating into money and sales.
Zuri Berry: Awesome. That’s an amazing story to tell, and I’m so happy for you in all of that. I have a couple of last questions for you here. Well, first, before I get to those last questions, actually, you mentioned some of the amazing episodes. What’s your favorite Mistakes That Made Me episode?
Eman Ismail: Ooh, good question.
Zuri Berry: The first one that comes to your mind.
Eman Ismail: Oh, the first one that came to my mind was Caroline and Jason Zook. But I really loved all of them, but also really loved [Dielle Charon’s]. But I’ve followed Jason and Caroline Zook for so long, and I mean, maybe four, five years I’ve been following their businesses, their journey, their podcast. I’m a big fan of theirs. And so to be able to sit down for an hour and a half and chat to them and they’re just the loveliest, just kindest, most open, like smartest people. And I think their interview was just like, wow. It was just wow. And also their podcasters, so it was super easy to work with them as well.
What’s it like working with ZMC?
Zuri Berry: So what’s it like working with me?
Eman Ismail: It’s amazing.
Zuri Berry: You were not forced to say that.
Eman Ismail: No, I feel like I’ve already gone on and on about how amazing it’s worked with you, but it really is. Like I said, I feel like you read my mind, you know what I want with an episode, with an interview before I’ve even said it to you. We’re just really on the same page. You really made an effort to understand what I want, my goals, what I want for this show, and then you, I want to say you delivered, but you just went so far beyond that. And when people talk to me about the show, I really feel like I always talk about you and mention you because I feel like it’s almost as much as your show as it is mine because you play such a huge role in the making of it.
It would not be what it is without you. And I wouldn’t want to work with anyone else on this show. I truly have fun working with you and enjoy working with you. And I think, you know, you can’t always say that about people you work with.
Zuri Berry: I think that’s why we’re doing this interview is because I enjoy this so much, and I enjoy working with you so much. I think you’re an amazing person, and if I could summarize our working relationship, you make things so easy for me. And I mean that in terms of the guests, I mean that in terms of the storytelling, I mean that in terms of all of these things, it’s just a really, a remarkable product that you put together and that you sort of just lay on a platter for me to cut up and season and do all the things in order to make it a meal for our listening audience. So I think it’s really cool, and I’m glad to work with you on this.
Eman Ismail’s advice for anyone looking to start a podcast
Zuri Berry: The last question that I have. For anyone looking to start a podcast, what’s your best advice for them as they’re considering getting going in this audio world?
Eman Ismail: You know, I think I’m going to say, well, what makes your show different from other podcasts? There are just so many podcasts, and I think I’m really proud that I was able to create something that people remember that sticks in their memory that they feel is unique, that they’ve never come across before. Because I think that’s really hard. There are just so many podcasts.
So I think the biggest thing is to really think about what makes yours different from the other podcasts. Yes. You like you as the host. Yes. But what else? What is it about your show that people are going to remember that makes them want to listen, that makes them want to tune in?
Actually, from what I’m seeing, I think the listenership for my show is growing because people talk about this show and the way that they are able to describe it interests people. Like, oh, it’s a show that’s all about business owners’ mistakes. And then the other person goes, oh, oh, that’s interesting. I’m going to go check that out. And so what is it about your show that will make it easy for people to recommend the show, remember the show, you know, and really fall in love with the show.
Zuri Berry: Awesome. Eman, thank you so much. It’s been wonderful.
Eman Ismail: You. Thank you so much for having me, Zuri.
Zuri Berry: I appreciate it.
That’s a wrap for this month. Reach out to me if you’re interested in launching a podcast to help improve your brand by visiting my contact page. And please let me know your thoughts, feedback, or podcast recommendations by leaving a comment below. If you want more content like this in your inbox, sign up for my newsletter here.